‘Modern Love’ Podcast: Lucy Dacus of boygenius on How to Get Talking Again

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From The New York Times, I’m Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Every week, we bring you stories and conversations inspired by the Modern Love column. We talk about love, sex, friends, family, and all the messiness of human relationships.

When I think about today’s guest, indie rock darling Lucy Dacus, there is one lyric that is seared into my mind because it is maybe too vivid. It’s this awkward description of a kiss, and it’s in her 2018 song “Night Shift.”

(SINGING) The first time I tasted somebody else’s spit

I had a coughing fit

Ugh. Dacus always sounds like she’s taking her lyrics straight from the pages of her old diaries on her solo albums, and when she plays with the Grammy-winning trio boygenius. For example, in songs like “First Time,” I can hear the thrill and the drama of being in your 20s and falling in love and out of love and back in love again.

(SINGING) I can’t go back to who I was before I met you

I can’t undo what I’ve done

I wouldn’t want to

Dacus has a new album out on March 28. It’s called “Forever Is A Feeling.” And on this record, she sounds like she’s moving into yet another era. She’s singing more about queer love and lust and being ready to commit to someone, or at least try to, for the long term.

Today I talk to Lucy Dacus about the new emotional territory she’s been exploring in her music, and she reads a Modern Love essay about how hard it can be to stay connected to a partner when we inevitably keep changing as individuals.

Lucy Dacus, welcome to Modern Love.

Thanks for having me.

Lucy, you recently did something that I thought was very fun and very flirty. You posted a TikTok where you gave fans a short teaser of a new song, and you told them you were doing an open casting call for the music video. You said you were looking for, and I’m quoting you here, “People who are smooth or suave or can pretend to be. Maybe you’re a hot masc. Maybe you’re simply willing and able and not afraid to be on camera.” What made you decide to do this open call with those very specific parameters?

Well, the song is “Best Guess,” which is the first love song I’ve ever written that uses she pronouns.

(SINGING) You may not be an angel

But you are my girl

I was like, OK, this is my first like overtly little gay time in a song. So I was like, have it be like a bachelor party for me, because my dream is that people would play it at their weddings.

(SINGING) You are my best guess at the future

You are my best guess

And also just the chorus being like, you’re my best guess. That’s kind of maybe all you can give since things change. And so I like that as vows, because I intend to stick with you and love you forever. And that should be enough. [LAUGHS]

So anyways, I was thinking about marriage and stuff as should be a bachelor party for me. I’ll invite some friends and then maybe I can invite other people to be looking hot in suits. And I was like, how am I going to find people? Do we go to general casting? Is it dancers? And I was like, you know who looks into cameras and tries to look cool? People on TikTok.

That is so true.

Because it’s a skill. I’m the least suave person in that video. You have to have confidence to be able to do that. And then it took on really a life of its own. There were over 5,000 entries. I didn’t end up getting to see all of them, but what fun.

What fun.

I feel a little bit put upon that people started to expect for it to represent lesbianism or just the masc part, the butchdom. But there’s men and women and nonbinary people in the video, just hotties and having a sweet time playing pool and arm wrestling.

And boxing.

Boxing. Scenes of people looking into the camera, getting dressed and dancing. There’s a coordinated dance. And Kayley, one of the boxers, they were like, can I show my top surgery scars? And I was like, yes, absolutely. And there have been really sweet messages from people being like, I see myself for the first time. Or parents of young kids being like —

That’s really sweet.

My kid is seeing a positive — they want their queer kids to engage with queer media, but a lot of it is miserable. A lot of queer media is about suffering. And so this is just a lightweight — it’s four minutes. But it was beautiful. People were crying on set and it was really nice.

I do want to talk about the fact that you said this was the first love song where you used — you identified the person, the object of desire, as a she. Tell me about the emotions surrounding that choice.

Yeah. I mean, I haven’t written that many love songs in general. I haven’t felt that people deserve to know what’s going on with me, or I just haven’t wanted that to be a focus of any art, because then people get curious. And don’t be curious about that. And honestly, still, I’m like, mind your business. But I do have all these songs that feel very special that just come out of my life. That’s why I’m writing music is to translate my life to myself.

But in the past, I’ve kind of kept pronouns ambiguous just so the most people can relate to them or just put themselves into it. And also, it’s really about the ideas behind it more than the specific people. So I think it just puts focus more on what I’m saying than who I’m saying it to. But I thought about changing this lyric to keep with that principle, but I was like, I don’t know, I’ll give them one. I’ll give me one. It does feel good. I played it one time. I surprised open for Julien Baker. And at that line everyone went, [GASPS]:.

Wait, the crowd gasped?

The crowd was like [GASP]: and then they did a little yay, like a quiet yay.

Tell me about how did that feel to experience?

Well, it was nice. It made me laugh in the middle of the song. Made me smile. I’m like, this is good if it’s bringing some people delight.

You said, I’ll give them one as in a detail, I guess, about your life. But then you changed it immediately and you said, I’ll give me one.

Yeah, one just up front, uncloaked that’s how it is moment.

That’s how it is. I want to return to the lyrics of “Best Guess.” To me, it sounds like a love song with some very crucial caveats almost. I’m not sure what the future holds for us, but I love you. You’re hot. I think we have a chance. You sing, “I love your body, I love your mind. They will change, so will mine. But you are my best guess at the future.” Is that something you feel hanging over you when you’re falling for someone, the possibility that as you evolve and get older, you might change too much to stay together?

I don’t think it’s hanging. It doesn’t get in the way. It’s just the truth, so it’s there. I guess I’m not delusional enough to think that it isn’t there. So I like that sentiment, because being like your body will change. A lot of people are not OK with this. A lot of people at all ages are not cool with that happening. And I think it’s nice to hear your partner say, I know you’re going to get old. I still like you.

And yeah, if you change your mind, if you change who you are, I think there’s still going to be something about you. If you change your opinions or you decide you were wrong about something or you don’t have to be — even though I love you as you are today, we don’t get to freeze frame on today. You can become other things. And just wanting to support people and whoever they’re becoming.

That idea that our connection to someone we love can change reminds me of the essay, the Modern Love essay that you’re going to read for us today. Do you want to say anything about why you chose it, why you were drawn to it?

Sure, yeah. I read this, and it’s about this couple who seems like they’re running out of things to say to each other as their relationship goes on and they have kids, which is something that I fear. And also, I have a song called “Talk” that’s just about that, being at the point of the relationship where you wonder if it’s all over, that there’s not any more interest. I think this just happens a lot, and a lot of people give up or don’t know how to get out of the rut of not being able to talk to each other. And so the story kind of talks about their efforts to revive their relationship from that point.

We’re going to take a quick break. I’m really excited to hear you read this essay when we come back.